A blogger friend of mine and I have been having an ongoing debate over reparations and the former slave race of this country. While I am adamantly opposed to any reparations to any party because of race, religion, or any of the other traits that could warrant discrimination, he is just as vigorously for reparations.
My never-to-be-humble-opinion in this matter was originally instilled in my vastly superior brain by none other than my grandfather, a Cherokee Indian. His mentality was one of someone who was severely un-politically correct and I believe that I have done his memory a proud turn by continuing in his direction and far exceeding anything that he could have ever accomplished. Well, probably not, but I would like to think that I am headed in the right direction. Of course, I did make a stop off in Stupidityland as a youngster.
My thoughts toward people in general has never been one of judging a person by outward appearance, but instead, I tend to try to determine whether I like a person or not by their actions and personality. Pretty easy to do, given the right circumstances. I would hang out with someone all day long even if we had differing opinions on the majority of topics, if we could discuss them and simply agree to disagree if we realized there was simply no common ground. No blood, no foul. Do I have liberal friends? Some, but not many. It seems that the vast majority of them make claims or comments that are just so asinine that there could never be any common ground. It seems in the Two Dogs Model, that geniuses, such as myself, have no tolerance for morons.
Point in case, if anyone that is a vegan starts in on me and my appetite for dead animals, there might be problems. Hey, you don't want to eat animals, great, more dead animals for me. Just don't try your almighty piousness on me.
Anyhoo, this post is about reparations and I shall attack that right here. It seems that there is a move underfoot to try to eek out some dust for the folks that were promised forty acres and a mule. I am not opposed to that at all if you were a slave. But it seems that none are still surviving. Okay, let's just say that we will pay reparations to the subsequent two generations of the slaves. Here comes that damn math thing again.
Slavery was abolished in 1862 in the slave states. Just for the sake of the argument, let's use the age of ten as the studied slave age for ease of calculations. If you were a ten year old slave then and are still alive, you are 153 years old. Not happening, so let's go with the next generation. If you are the offspring of a slave, you are eligible.
Again going with the ten year old number, you have children at the age of fifty, just to push the envelop. Your child is 103 years old in 2005. Okay still not happening even with having kids at the age of fifty.
Second generation kids could be as young as 53 years of age if we use the model of having kids at fifty. That would mean that you were born in 1952. I think that we should ask any Black person that was born before 1952, if they are descendants of slaves or their offspring if they want reparations. From this point we could ascertain the NEED to continue the debate for slavery reparations.
Anyway, there are many reasons that I am against reparations and only one in which I could ever agree to it. You would have to present definitive proof that you were a descendant of a person that was a slave of course, but you would have to show me in no uncertain terms how your success has been undermined by the memory of slavery in general.
The final thought on the matter is this. The only people who would be forced to pay reparations are the ones that benefitted from slavery. Not one single person that came to this country after slavery was abolished would be liable for the debts of the slave owners. To call out an entire race because of the actions of a few is irresponsible in Two Dogs Land. Hell, I even got a German friend and it seems that they have this thing about killing Jews, Blacks, and homosexuals. Damn Crackers.
UPDATE: soundboyz, before you give up on women entirely, check out my WEBPAGE of all my friends that I hang with, maybe you will find something of interest.
UPDATE ii: Welcome all from the Best of Me Symphony. Front page is HERE.
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102 comments:
soundboyz, I think that was a little harsh. I don't go for the race baiting stuff at all. I think that my proposal has serious merits for reparations.
And what, no comment on my linked site?
Ok, you missed something that needs to be pointed out. Those calling for reparations do not want reparations for the descendents of slaves. No, they want the government and other various and sundry corporations to pay into "funds" to be used for the advancement of the descendents of slaves.
Now, if you are looking for a descendent of a slave who is deserving of reparations, here I am. My Grandparents were enslaved by the Japanese. Japan took over Korea for 50 years. Koreans couldn't even speak their own language then. Japan has paid some reparations, but not to me. Where's mine? Wait, there is more. On my father's side, I had irish and scottish ancestors who were indentured servants and treated rather poorly by their masters. Where's my reparation?
I'm with you, show me how you have been handled to your detriment because of lingering feelings about slavery!
OT, I was always here, just didn't comment -- no time . . .
Wait, you are a mish-mash of Korean and Scots-Irish? I bet that makes for a funny Christmas dinner. And if Mr. Smith Bowani comes though with my cash, just belly up to the reparations bar, Oddybobo, I will have enough for everyone.
Intelligent OR baseball fans? How about Intelligent Baseball fans?
Well there are some baseball fans that like the DH, so I tend to kinda qualify the description.
Ok, Imara, and how is any of this tied to slavery? I'll give you racism on some people's part, but slavery? Uh, nope. Oh wait, now I get it, if someone suffers poorer health, obesity, etc. . . it just has to be because their ancestors were slaves 200 years ago. Makes tons of sense to me. Guess that's why I'm a bit overweight, have asthma, don't make as much as my male counterparts, including my black male counterparts, have a crappier house than my black counterpart, have a family member who got jail time when her black counterpart got probation, didn't get that juicy scholarship, or spicy spot on the cheerleading squad. Yep. Slavery. Dayum!
OT, you didn't know my background Two Dogs? You must not visit me much ;)
Oddybobo, I do check your site on a daily basis. However if you look at my blogroll those are the sites that I read everyday without fail. I will make a point to go back and read more.
Imara, I do have posted the employment rates and their corresponding numbers from 1997, in a post below. It does seem that unemployment in the Black community is falling at a faster rate than in the White community. Of course nothing is instantaneous, but it appears that with Republicans doing what they do, it is good for the Black community.
Poverty is falling as well. I know that together all can be worked out. I just don't think that this has anything to do with the affects of slavery. But, I would appreciate a comment on my proposal.
Please explain how someone that never owned slaves could reaps any "rewards" from slvery.
And if a person is Arab or Asian, they would still have to pay for the transgressions of slave owners?
Again that's flawed logic. "reaping the benefits from slavery" what exactly am I reaping that causes me to have to pay reparations? My $100,000 in school loans? My car that's fallin apart? Or maybe its my house with all the problems inherent in it. Perhaps its just the fact that I worked my ass off to get where I am and don't appreciate anyone suggesting that I benefited from or on the back of anyone else!
My family didn't hold slaves, were slaves, but didn't hold them. Why then, should I have to pay money in any form to anyone whose family may have remotely had a slave in it 200 years ago? This isn't a "the sins of the Father" scenario.
Point to the physical and psychological effects felt today. Better yet, explain it. Do you wake in a cold sweat after a dream of lashings or lynchings? Perhaps you vomit in the morning after eating something remotely tasteless because it reminds you of when you were a slave and didn't get good food. Or maybe you shake with fear when you have to pass a white person on the street for fear that if you make eye contact you'll be flogged? NO? Didn't think so. So, pray tell, what are the lasting psychological and physical effects that descendents of slaves feel, as a direct result of slavery, nearly 200 years later?
I say again, those things can be attributed to racism maybe, but not slavery. And racism didn't stem from slavery, it exists the world over and has for all of humanity.
I refuse to be forced to contribute to a reparations fund that will not go to the descendants of slavery, but to special interests, supposed charities and "Equality" funds. Show me a slave, and I'll give them money, but honey, there ain't no slaves left here. Slavery was a blight on our history, will always be, and serves as a reminder of the mistakes of the past. Where, however, are you when young boys and girls are sold in the sex trades, or continue to be sold into slavery in Africa today? Shall we request reparations from those tribes for those victims? Afterall, they represent this generation of people in the present, and not a generation that suffered 200 years ago.
Oh that's rich. Instead of intelligent debate, a pox on your house and family? While we are tossing around inane generalities, just like a liberal to start with the name calling and cussin and pie throwing, when they can't bring anything logical or factual to the party.
Since you know nothing about me, my families circumstances or what my family "went through" you wouldn't know of which you curse. Without getting into specifics, I am sure that the life I lead and the one my parents did, was so wholly below the privileged life you lead that your head would spin.
And racism? I know of which I speak. Racism isn't reserved for black men and women. No, we asians fall into the mix too. So while I have never, ever tossed the f-bomb in your direction, you spread that filth in my direction. Thank you, for displaying such class. It is such a joy to witness.
soundboyz, since you posted this hate-filled vitiolic statement, I have been searching the entire world-wide web to find just one reference to the United States paying one cent to the Jewish people in reparations. The only references that I can find are the ones that refer to Germany and the Swiss banking system. I am not saying that it didn't happen, but I can't find one reference to it on the whole web.
The only thing that I can find in reference to the United States about the Jewish people was our political backing to get back the things that were taken from them by Nazi Germany and its allies. We actually set up a commission to look into it. Money was set aside for the funding of the commission which amounted to $3.5 million.
As far as actual reparations paid to the Jewish people, it was limited to the people that were displaced or murdered. The displaced were not allowed to return to their property in all cases, but were simply offered an appropriate sum for their lost land and property.
Again, the Hawaiian reparations has to do with land. If this bill actually passes, which it has not, Hawaii will be paid a whoping sum of $00.50 per acre for the next 106 years. That will equal $95 million. However, this bill has been sitting in the Congress since at least 1993, when Clinton apologized for something that happened in 1893. In case you didn't know, Clinton apologized for all sorts of things because he was obviously a moron.
Anyway, it looks like your parents haven't paid reparations to anyone unless they were Nazis.
soundboyz, she didn't call you a liberal bitch.
I think that at this point, I should just shut this damn blog down. I have tried everything that I know to do to have a debate based on civility and similarities. I thoroughly enjoy the debate even if I think that I have a losing point. I try to hear every side of the argument and offer what I see as solutions, not that anything will come of my opinions, but at least we can reach a common ground.
I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have done that with this topic, because I am personally against reparations. I think that they would cause more problems for a larger segment of the population than they would solve for a smaller one, if any problems are solved at all.
All that said, you have seen my proposal for giving a small segment of our country cold, hard cash for something that they have no understanding of, nope not one bit, but that wasn't good enough. I have no other suggestions on this topic, sorry.
And if anybody's toes got trounced, I am truly sorry for that. I do believe that I maintained the highest moral standard in this debate and I will stick to my guns.
Peace out.
http://www.churchoftrueisrael.com/nsforum/ns4-06.html
http://omni.ucsb.edu/cbs/xsite/lectures/legacy/Dodson.html
Two quick points here for me. The first article posted by soundboyz is clearly an antisemitic website and I have already done a search to find any US legislation regarding reparations to the Jewish people. I cannot find one. Like I posted before, Germany and the Swiss banking industry did pay reparations to the actual imprisoned and relocated Jews. I think that this first article is absolutely full of shit. The footnotes are missing, gotta back it up with facts.
As far as Howard Dodson is concerned, his research habits are very good. This is an actual program of a conference that his group, the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture, which is funded by Jews, put on. Yep, them damn Jews sure do throw money around for things like this. It is obvious that Mr. Dodson is attempting to put a number on the perceived value of the slave trade to acquire a dollar amount for reparations.
While many of his theories are fundamentally flawed, let's look at the overall viewpoint of his arguments.
1. All you have to prove is that you are Black to be a disadvantaged person and are due reparations.
2. You do not even have to be born yet to receive reparations.
3. And if you are Black, there will be seed money for you to start a business.
While these are all asinine to any thinking person, let's break them down to the easy terms.
Number one, this point means that even if you have never been to the United States, the damnable Satan country, you can jump on a plane, come here, and receive your dowry from being the same color as a man that was once a slave. Ridiculous. Snoop gets the same amount of money that an actual inner-city struggling mother of four gets. Great idea.
Number two, is there really a need to even address this stupidity?
Number three, seed money is already spewing forth like a firehose at a teacup. Inner-city revitalization money, which are primarily Black neighborhoods is being pumped out at alarming rates and those areas turn right back to what they were before. So, we got that one covered.
Any other suggestions are welcomed.
Again, the word "niggerish" didn't enter my vocabulary until I came across it here. I never suggested that slavery should be forgotten, nor did I suggest that black slaves got perks. I was pointing out the obvious, which is that there are no slaves now, and you sir are not one. Therefore, I shouldn't have to pay you anything unless you can prove to me, and by prove, I do mean with actual facts, that you were either a slave, or have been directly affected by slavery. Now, by direct, I do mean direct. I don't mean, that there are racists in the community who have done you wrong, nor do I mean that you have indirectly been affected by social mores that harken back some 200 years to slave times. I mean direct.
Now, since you refer to me as a "bitch" I must tell you, that I am exactly that. What has made me so? People like you. I am not making generalities here. When I engage in true debate, I don't throw well-worn obscenities in my opponents direction, I would be out of a job. When my opponent, however, sees fit to toss them my way, I turn into an Uber-bitch. Like the Alpha female protecting her young. So, thanks for the complement.
Now, Two Dogs, don't shut down this site. I love it. I am sure that real debate will occur at some point, but in the meantime, just keep pluggin away.
As for your suggestions, being a member of the Minority Business Council, I can tell you are correct, seed money spews forth. My suggestion? Lets move on to another topic as this one has degraded into insanity.
> Again, the word "niggerish" didn't enter my vocabulary until I came across it here.
Oh, in that case I know a bunch of them. Let's see....there is , niggardous, niggardly, niggra-lite, niggerdom, niggeristic, and my favorite, niggeresque.
Oh, my favorite would have to be niggra-lite. I almost coughed up my skull lauging at that one.
> Oh, my favorite would have to be niggra-lite.
That's what I call Imara......
See Oddybobo, that wasn't so bad , was it? Deep down, we are all the same. I do understand the need to look ahead and not dwell in the past.It's not like i'm depending on that reparations check to pay off my student loans, but I think it's extremely important that justice is afforded to everyone, even those who are not alive to seek it.
By the way , how much "chunk" are we talking?
What are are talking about Imara, is certainly not restricted to just the Black community. If you at pure numbers, the white population is suffering just as bad. Thank goodness, my peopel got them damn casinos. Notelling where we would be without the gambling folks.
Oh, and I can certainly thank my parents for who I am, because I realized exactly how stupid people can be when given everything.
We simply don't worry about that really. I know that I made a comment a couple of posts back, and you know I keep track of it too. There will be grading.
The mentality on the set aside land is what keeps the Injun down. We got the land, the financial support, the free cheese and turned into losers. I think that pretty much sums it up. The casinos will put the final nail in the coffin of the Indian and he will destroy the rest of the legacy. Something for nothing means something into nothing.
You see Imara, if you turn to history, you will find that the ones that stopped producing were the ones that failed. Rome did and it was the greatest empire until the United States showed everyone what to do.
The poor community did it after the welfare state was created. Look at Star Parker's case, she was a burned out alcoholic and welfare mom. Turn away from the government tit and the rest is history.
Two very different case studies there, huh?
Two Dogs, somehow I don't think the reparations were responsible for the current state of your people. I know it's hard to look at the big picture because you didn't go through the worst of it, but when a people lose their identity, and their customs, and their religion ,and everything else that made them once a proud , strong people,it affects them, on a deep , subconscious level. They are a defeated people , literally and mentally.And guess what, just because they were given these things , does not mean that they are not being manipulated and opressed still to this day.I understand your point about "free" stuff, but I think reparations is not free stuff. I think it's payment and compensation to try and reconcile wrongs done ,and I think it's unfair of you to put blame on the reparations and ignore the effects of the wrongs done.
Now Welfare, that's free stuff!!But still, Jesus spoke of charity as the best works of a man.....i'm just making that up, but he did big up charity!!!Hey , someone's got to get the free stuff!!!
soundboyz, my point is that up until a certain point in time, the Indian was an island unto himself. Self-supporting, independent and resourceful. Enter government set-aside land, the beef program, government subsidized housing, etal and it was not many years when all you could find on the reservation was a bunch of drunk people, chain smoking cigarettes all day long.
Coincidence? I'm guessing no, because I know that if I didn't have to work, I probably wouldn't. Give me that mad lottery money and you are going to see Jim Morrison Part Two.
>soundboyz, my point is that up until a certain point in time, the Indian was an island unto himself. Self-supporting, independent and resourceful
Yea , but that was before Whitey gave you guys the measel blankets and killed off the Buffalo.?
That's smallpox and its apparently not true. Killed off the buffalo? Why I just drove by a buffalo farm yesterday. They got some! ; )
Oh, man, humans didn't even know that disease was carried by germs then. It wasn't even until 1965 that Pasteur started doing his silkworm studies. You don't actually beleive THAT crap do you? You must have just finished junior high school at a public school.
And the bison is still around.
Uh, I mean 1865, whoops, clumsy hands.....
>That's smallpox and its apparently not true. Killed off the buffalo? Why I just drove by a buffalo farm yesterday. They got some! ; )
I didn't mean kill off to extinction. Geese ...I have to be specific with everything.And I did see on a documentary that the buffalo was purposely killed in vast numbers because whitey knew the Indians depended on it for food.
You said "apparently" , did you just talk to someone?
Plus Oddybobo, you still didn't answer my question....How "chunky"?
Excuse me Oddybobo...I meant how much "chunk" is in your trunk?
Sorry again Oddybobo....what I really meant was how chunky is your monkey?
No, the poachers killed the bison for the fur. It was not in direct relation to anything about the Indians.
> No, the poachers killed the bison for the fur. It was not in direct relation to anything about the Indians.
That is incorrect. Although they did kill the buffalo for it's fur, hundreds of thousands of buffalo were slaughtered and left to rot because WHITEY knew THE INDIANS DEPENDED ON BISON MEAT AS PART OF THEIR DIET!!!!I KNOW ABOUT THIS ONE!!!!
Wait, don't tell me, Whitey did nothing wrong to the Native Americans?..Are you whitey?
I did not say that there were not crimes against Indians. I think that the main thing was that the politicians had absolutely no honor when dealing with the Indians. Hey, and guess what? Every single, solitary Democrat Administration since then has maintained that record. Could be that is why in this last election cycle, the Indian voted for Bush at a rate of two to one.
And if you will look at Bill Richardson's election, you will notice that if it was up to the redman, he would have been hung.
My point ever since you and I started this debate, Democrats are bad for minorities.......and poor folks.........and rich folks.....and handicapped people.....women........children, and the list goes on and on....
and what are Republicans good for? War....and poverty....and eliminating the middle class.....and....
I like how you tried to switch the topic to Dems , but you will have to acknowledge that thw White Man devistated the Natives of America . Believe me, it was so bad they gave them reparations. And you know Whitey don't give reparations out to just anybody!!!!
Anyway , like I stated before, the racist whites all left the Democratic party once slaves were freed!!!"They didn't want to be in the same party with NIGGERS". They all joined the Republican party and it's been that way until today!!!!! I know this as a fact !!!!It's not open for debate....I'm not hearing you... Bla Bla Bla BLa!!!
For the answer to how much chunk see me here: http://boboblogger.blogspot.com/2005/04/what-i-do-for-fun.html I warn you, it's a post baby picture, so there's a bit of extra chunk. . .
"Racist whites?" It was racist whites in the democratic party wanting to halt the Civil Rights Act, racist whites in the democratic party who were against integration, racist whites in the democratic party who were for public lynchings, school burnings and the like. Check your history Soundboyz!
OT, Two Dogs, how is it you get 50+ comments on a post and I get like 1 . . .
I really don't know what actually illicits comments, but soundboyz and Imara have a post with 110 comments on their blog.
I've put up posts that I thought would just fall into the ether and would up with 70 comments and had posts that I thought would get 100 and no one said a thing.
No idea.
Calm Down Oddybobo.....you didn't let me finish....Now, most of these racist whites left the Democratic party immediately after the freeing of slaves.....and some did stay on until desegregation.
Thanks for the link. I must say , you don't seem to have that much "chunk" in yo trunk. But then again, it was from a distance. "Chunk" is good!....In moderation.......
>No idea.
That's the first time you typed that!!You need to be this honest more often Dogs!
Oddybobo.....Don't tell me that you were implying "racist blacks"...Yea that's it, raacist blacks were the problem. I realize that there were also blacks against integration and against the movement, but they were the exception, whereas racist whites were behind the segregation and terrorism. See, it's confusing because the type of people that used to be in the Democratic party did the ol' switcheroo, and this is what Republicans often use to try and cloud the issue.But if you know your history, you certainly know that the people of the old Dems switched parties at different times. Imagine, someone being So racist, they can't even be registered in the SAME party as blacks.....And I am not going to argue this one because I know it to be factual!!!I have seen it referenced many places. There was a PBS special on reconstruction in America that specifically explained this shell game!
What I find extremely funny is that soundboyz keeps saying all the racist whites left the Democrat party after some point in the past. Here it is in a nutshell, the party of oppression and death to the poor is the one of the Democrat.
Name One (1) federal program instituted by the Democrats for the purpose of helping Blacks achieve equality. One, just one.
>Here it is in a nutshell, the party of oppression and death to the poor is the one of the Democrat.
Was....the GOP has that honorable distinction NOW!!!!
>Name One (1) federal program instituted by the Democrats for the purpose of helping Blacks achieve equality. One, just one.
Like you have stated previous, congress is responsible for passing these acts, not one party.
I wasn't implying racist blacks at all, but I must say ya'll are quick to the trigger with the "uncle Tom" slurs whenever a black man or woman is a conservative . . .
Beyond that, what you originally said was that all the racist whites left the democratic party and became republicans. . . hmmm, Sen. Byrd, Former V.P. Al Gore who's mammy had to wait in the car while the family ate in a restaurant, Hillary . . . last I checked, still dems, still racists too. They use blacks for their own gain and then ignore them when they don't need them.-look, they are on both sides of the aisle and unfortunately probably always will be.
As far as Republicans being the party of oppression, not one president before Bush has had more minorities in key positions in his administration, not one. What are the Republicans oppressing exactly? Don't throw me Iraq as an example, my blog friends from Iraq don't see it that way at all, but really If you spend all of your time screaming oppression, when do you have time for fun?
It's springtime, come on out of that dated cocoon.
Going back to the earlier topic, here is a link to the stats on slavery today. Don't tell me its incomparable to slavery of 200 years ago. In some respects, its worse. More people are being held as slaves today than 200 years ago,
http://www.freetheslaves.net/slavery_today/
Oddybobo, just because Bush appoints minorities does not mean anything. It would be in his best interest to give the impression that he is tolerant by doing so, but those that he has appointed does not represent their respective groups..Yes, I is quick to scream UNCLE TOM!!!!
I am not in a dated cocoon, you are!! Sorry Oddybobo ,that was childish. You are right, there are, and probably will always be racist on all sides. Your points are well taken.
I still will shoot the pants off of you . You don't even know the skills of marksmanship that I posess!!!We can go from BB guns to 50 cal.!!!What then?!!!
Oddybobo, I checked out that link. 27 million pales in comparison to just the slaves that died on the journey TO the Americas!!!Sorry , I understand the severity of the problem, but that does not negate anything concerning the Trans Atlantic slave trade.
Besides , for so many slaves to exist in this day and age you would think that people would know something. You can't just hide 27 million people like that!! I know it's globally.Are you sure your sister WAS adopted?(JK ODDY ...Don't get your pant legs all rolled up , or something like that)
Hey , there was that one Mexican guy living in that white lady's closet and he was giving her the business!!!Maybe he was one, yea he must have been a sex slave.How cruel !!!Those desperate housewives!!!
First, I don't believe you, second, where do you live that you could even develop skills? Or, were you in the military in which case I would have to concede.
If your estimated numbers are to be believed. Last i checked documented numbers were anywhere from 8-15 million. They aren't hiding at all, they are in plain sight.
Oh, and she was adopted, I think, we just tell people that while she's fetchin my pancakes . . .
No, actually she's an accomplished artist and very good friend to me now, and believe it or not, we have very similar debates, but she always defers to me cause I am the master of all that is good and right . . . ;)
>Or, were you in the military in which case I would have to concede.
Concede! I routinely qualified "Expert" throughout my tour in the U.S. Army.....without scope, strictly sites!!!I still have my medals to prove it!! The one time I only qualified for sharpshooter, my magazine jammed , and I could not clear the weapon, but because I had not missed a single target prior to that , They accepted that score and did not let me requalify.Deadly accurate from 50m to 300m ( half silhouette targets)
>Oh, and she was adopted, I think, we just tell people that while she's fetchin my pancakes . . .
That's mean. You ARE a little Wit*ch , aren't you? JK. It sounds like you two must "debate" these things often. I can see why you are so skilled in debating this topic. But somehow, I think deep down,as a human being, you know what happened to blacks was wrong, and if you truly believe in justice, you know that injustice on such a grand scale cannot be left unavenged.
soundboyz, it was avenged. Slavery was abolished in the United States in 1862. It's over one hundred and forty-two years ago.
Two Dogs, abolish does NOT equal avenged!!!!!You sure want to hit that 100 mark , huh?
Oh, by the way, thanks for the update link. I think I will go with top row, last one. She reminds me of Oddybobo...but without the attitude, and the rifle.
Ok, ok, I concede, having never been in the military myself. Asthma, didn't pass the physical. I am mean. My sis. tells me all the time. But, I do believe that injustices should be righted, not avenged. I think that those injustices were righted long ago. Look, I also conceded that some may still feel the effects of a lifetime's worth of brutal treatment, but there is no one left to avenge, cept' ghosts. I'll focus on todays problems keeping in mind the atrocity of the past in an attempt to keep it from happening again.
I thought that you might like that. Last on the right side?
I also have longer hair, done to my waist. . . how did this get to be about me?
Wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!Stop all the blogs!!!!!!!!!! We have Late Breaking News to report!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oddybobo has conceded on something, albeit minor, she has in fact conceded on two , yes ....i'm now getting word ...it is two things!!!!!!!I don't know quite what to make of this......it's downright shocking......We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming!!!!
Well Oddybobo, you are right , one cannot avenge something for ghosts. You are also right when you say that it can be righted. This is a glorious day!!!Now, if only we can get you to see that the rationale for slavery was/is the same underlying mentality that has lead to segregation, bigotry, racism and ultimately oppression.Maybe we should stop for today, and try again some other time....I don't want to shoot(no pun intended) for too much at once.
BTW...do you ever let your sister read these posts and comments? I'm sure she would just love to get involved!!!!
> I thought that you might like that. Last on the right side?
Yep!
> I also have longer hair, done to my waist. . . how did this get to be about me?
because you are the lovely, adorable, Oddybobo,that's why.
I conceded, I did, but not that the atrocities of slavery had not already been righted. Nor did I ever say that the underlying mentality didn't lead to things like segregation. That is because the underlying mentality is and was racism, which as I said before has always been a part of the human psyche. Now, that does not mean that we can use "reparations" to fix something I believe to have already been righted by our civil rights acts, etc . . .
Look, without sounding too condescending, we all have a role to play, you cannot sit on your heals and say "I'm being oppressed give me a handout so I feel better about myself" That comes from within. That's what I think reparations here would amount to. That isn't what our government is for. But again, reparations wouldn't go to you. They go to some "charitable fund" who's overseer takes millions and disperses none. What good would that do anyone?
I never suggested a re-write to history. Slavery is a black mark on ours and most other countries' histories. But, I live in the here and now, where my actions speak for me. I am sorry that there are those out there who continue to oppress blacks, but look in the mirror for a milisecond . . .what you say about jooos makes you look just as bad in my eyes. I am not saying that you are a racist, but when you call a jooo a "so called" or spread stereotypes about them, that makes you as bad as those who wish to oppress you.
Me and my hair are just saying . . .
Oh, and my sis. doesn't have to read this, she hears it from me nearly everyday. She's a proud black woman (with cherokee blood) who can hold her own, and puts me in a headlock on occasion to prove a point . . .
Hey if she's Black and Cherokee, give her my e-mail address.
Why are you black and cherokee? Aren't you from down south? She's originally from Georgia.
I am Cherokee and American white boy. But you remember that I worship the badunkadunkdunk.
I was born in Mississippi and have lived here the majority of my life besides three months in Florida and four months in Yucatan. And I am working on a post to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the South is the best place in the world.
The title: THE SOUTH IS THE BEST PLACE IN THE WORLD!
O.K. Oddybobo ....I must concede that you are right . Reparations would just be a handout if given to individuals, however, it can be used to allow for education and skills training , job training , or a number of ways in which the decendants of slaves can better themselves. Remember, a hand up , not a hand out!!
You are also right in the fact that the trial lawyers would probably end up with the bulk of any reparations. But if it is implimented towards programs and causes, blacks would be better served.
As for my comments on the Jews, I am speaking from personal experience, not from any stereotype. I grew up in Brooklyn and I have witnessed the selfishness and the greed of so called Jews. I say so called Jews because anyone can convert to Judiasm and call themselves a Jew, but a Jew that does not make you. I don't believe a Jew is a Jew simply because he adopts the religion. In the Bible, Jews are defined as God's chosen people. I don't see these so called "Jews" behaving in any manner that would make me accept them as Jews. The Bible also speaks of "Jews who call themselves Jews, and are NOT"!!So, obviously there is such a thing as phony Jews who are not worthy of the title.I go by people's actions , and these so called Jews are acting in no way like God's chosen!I don't care if they don't eat pork, or that they read from the Torah.....
Now, soundboyz, you are bringing a possibility to the table. Where can we spend the dollars for these educational programs where they will benefit?
Can I make the suggestion of vouchers so parents can take their kids to school where they choose?
Don't we already have a myriad of programs that do exactly that?
Soundboyz, if I spoke from experience and then took that experience and generalized it, I would be saying some pretty derogatory things about blacks. (I have been physically and verbally assaulted by several black individuals of very low caliber) But I don't make those generalizations. Why is it when someone gets ahead on their own work they are greedy? I don't think I am greedy, but I also don't think I should have to spread my wealth or property around to those who don't have what I have. I worked very, very hard to get where I am. Surpassed significant roadblocks and made significant concessions to get here, and I am not about to just give my hard earned stuff away. What makes you think that the joos you encountered are any different?
Twodogs, my girl's gay (at least she thinks she is), sorry.
Damn.
Oddybobo, no one is asking for free stuff!!! And I am not speaking in generalizations , I have witnessed the So called Jews personally take OVER whole communities by raising the rent and housing prices so that people have no choice but to move .Then they mark up the buildings with hebrew and annex the new area. It is exactly what they are doing in Israel, they're building settlements in the US!!!I won't say ALL Jews, I'll just say every Jew I have ever had personal or professional dealings with.I think if you work for the US Government and hold a cabinet position, you should not be allowed to have dual citizenship. This would ensure that the interest of the US is being served first and foremost.
I agree with you on the dual citizenship thing in the cabinet.
I didn't say you wanted anything for free, but I have never witnessed what you describe. I have witnessed the exact opposite where low income whites, blacks, hispanics and asians move into a community and it goes to crap.
It is almost like there is no sense of pride. They mark up the buildings with incoherent words (grafitti).
No one forces anyone else to move, people make that choice. Look at that guy who stayed in the everglades. He wasn't forced to move, but the government wanted his land so they paid him for it and he finally made the decision to move.
The rent and housing prices go up but that is simply because of supply and demand. They correspondingly go down in poorer neighborhoods. I have no problem with those individuals doing their thing. Like countless immigrants before them, they live in self-created communities here and everywhere else they live. I'm guessing you would prefer to live near your own friends and family instead of some uppity half asian chick like me. Course I have no neighbors and I love it!
That is true, but its still a matter of choice. Pay more and stay or move away. Look I am fully aware that some people simply can't pay more, my statement was a bit too general in that regard.
It is still a matter of supply and demand. My response was more to Soundboyz statements blaming the joos for the rise in rent. I think that blame is misplaced.
No Oddybobo....This is a tactic known as gentrification. I know you might not have witnessed it personally, but I have witnessed it personally , in more than one state in America! It is systematic , and not just from fair market valus or natural appreciation.I know what I speak of!!
Oh , and I wouldn't want to live around you Oddybobo, I might "accidentally" wind up with one of your "stray" bullets in my house!!
"accidentally" well, at least that'd be what I'd want ya'll to think . . . :)
See Oddybobo, and I was just starting to like you.......
Naw, I'm a good one. I was just teasing!
> Naw, I'm a good one. I was just teasing!
I know Oddybobo.I was checking out your pics yesterday. You seem to have the life, huh? I know you don't ride that big bike ....If that little fellow is your son, he sure is cute. Now he's a little "chinky"....and a lot "chunky".
He's mine, the boy that is. The bike belongs to a friend, but I have ridden it more than once.
98...
99....
100....Congrats Two Dogs, welcome to the 100 club. I couldn't wait anymore until it creeped to 100, so I helped out just a bit!! Now let's end this silly debate!!!
I think the debate ended a while back. On to the next topic, I love the number 101, so had to comment one last time . . .
Just like a woman. Me=last word.
Okay, you can have it.
Two Dogs, let the lady have the last word and stop acting like a ....Snitch!!!
Just don't let this thing get to 110. That's a mark that was set by Imara and I and you shall NOT reach it!!
Oh, I am not trying to reach 110. That would just be gay!
I have been carrying on an internal debate about whether or not to say anything about reparations, and obviously, I have decided to say something.
I once got into a rather heated discussion with a group of women at my college about the oppression of blacks in the US, and about the perceived need for reparations. One woman got into my face and said "It is white folk like you that keep a nigga down" and that we should pay reparations.
I was shocked, for two reasons. One, at that time I was work in the inner-city, at a boys and girls club that was 90% black and 8% hispanic. I tutored girls in math and science, taught courses on self-esteem and birth control and drug-awareness. I helped in the kitchen and the cafeteria. I learned to dance, to braid corn rows, to see the pain behind violence and cruel words. I learned to confront prejudices in myself and recognize them as fear. And I learned that when you are holding someone close to your heart, you can't see race or colour.
The second reason why I was shocked was because I'm a mutt. I've got Cherokee and Chumash Indian, Latino, Jewish, German, Irish and Scotts in my bloodline. My mother was obviously ethnic, my father passed as white. My European forebears immigrated to the States in the 1850-1880's, settling in Kansas, Oklahoma, and California. They did not pass go, they did not collect $200, and they did not own slaves.
Now, to get on to my point. I really do have one. Because I am, to the casual eye, 'white', this young woman decided that my ancestors had enslaved her ancestors, I owed her reparations. But they didn't and I don't. There were a lot more slaves and rednecks in the South than there were white slave owners. The 'wealth' of the slave owners was invested in the slaves themselves, and when the slaves were freed, that wealth dried up. And much of what remained of the power and wealth of the former slave owners was destroyed by the whites from the North who felt morally justified in raping and pillaging the South during Reconstruction.
So I told her that her argument about white Americans owing black Americans reparations for their enslavement did not hold water. I told her, Now, if you want to argue that blacks were due reparations due to the racist actions and practices of whites, I might be more inclined to agree. But racial and ethinic conflicts and discrimination are not isolated to blacks, nor to America. They have occured, presently occur, and will continue to occur throughout the world. So at some point in the past, present, future, everyone could argue that everyone else owed them reparations.
I also told her that she was one of the most racist people I knew. This drew a lot of gasps. But it was true. During black history month, various people would stand up during dinner and share a story of black history in America. One Sunday in February, in the middle of brunch, she stood up and proceeded to tell a story about how she didn't like jews because of something a jew had done to her grandfather.
My jaw dropped. My stomach rebelled and I wanted to vomit. I looked at the two jewish women in the room, one of whom was my roommate. I saw their carefully blank expressions, hands in their laps, eyes staring at nothing. They were jewish, so they were used to this sort of thing. I looked at the 3 other black women in the room, and two of them looked embarassed. I wanted to face her and tell her what a hypocrite she was, to decry racism and then practice it herself.
Instead, I scraped my chair back as loudly as I could in the appalled silence, stood up, and walked out.
She turned that dining room into a hostile environment. She turned it into a podium to espouse her own twisted self-righteous racist views. I felt such compassion for her, because I knew that she wanted to be a leader, that she wanted to go back home and make a difference in her community, and that she would fail to achieve her desires if she did not stop thinking inside her us-against-them box. She saw whites and asians and jews and latinos as people who were competing with her for the better things in life, and more likely to get those things because they weren't black. I felt compassion for her because it was so obvious that she felt justified in her own racial hatreds because of her views. And I felt compassion for her because I understood that no amount of 'reparation' would change her hatred or her views, and thus she and her children would continue to perpetuate the cycle of socio-economic demoralization.
It makes me sad to realize that we contribute so much to our own struggles. She struggled with racism as a black woman, and she projected it into her world, meeting racism and prejudice with her own racism and prejuduce. And sadder still, she is not unique, not in this country, and not in this world. Just look at what is going on in Africa, in the Middle East, in Eastern Europe, and in Asia, as well as here in the States. Hatred, fear, racism and prejudice--these are universal 'values' in our species.
Kelly, that was extemely well said. While I do share your views on this topic, there is one thing that you are missing. While it seems to be enough to lead our lives as a human being that values everyone as a human being, there still are people that want to believe that since their ancestors were slaves, they should have some sort of redemption or compensation. I DO DISAGREE WITH THAT ASSUMPTION.
That said, I believe that my role as a human being is to never devalue another to the point of thinking that I am in the least bit guilty of perpetuating the myth that anyone is held back by something that occured 160 years in the past or shit 8 years in the past for that matter.
Okay, what I am beating around the bush to get to is this, slavery was bad, but it will never imprison the spirit that is destined to be successful. Anti-semitism is bad, but it will never stop the Jew that is determined to accomplish what they set their mind to achieve.
Do I see color? But of course I do. Does that affect my opinion of someone? Quite possibly I am more lenient on my decisions because of that. Do I think less of someone because of the amount of pigment in their skin? No, that's just stupid. Unless it's to hate albino people, cause everyone hates albinos.
Anyway, the point that I have always expressed is that for the most part, you are going to hurt if your mother dies no matter if you are black, white, yellow, or mauve. Who the Hell came up with the color "mauve"? Stupid name and stupid color.
Albinos are scary that's why! Kelly is very well spoken and sums up this little discussion that we have had, quite nicely!
Okay, I think that I am going to have to close comments on this thread.
Well , Of course you all feel that way....you're all not a part of the Affected group. So , you can continue to live your lives like everything is Honkey Dorey, Shit is real. I know it's hard for you all to see how it has an effect on who you are today and what disposition you are born into , but then again, I don't expect you all to know the pain and suffering of the affected race! And NO, working with inner city youths and that sort of shit doesn't begin to tackle the reason why they are "inner city" to begin with! What happened to the "forty acres and a mule?'
And I'm sure that all you scholars took logic and are well aware of the different types of arguments. Well, to say that because something exists elsewhere or happened to another group, does NOT, I repeat NOT , NEGATE the argument of the first example.Just because we both were victimized, does not negate your suffering or claims to that victimization!!
I don't expect the same group that was the oppressors to side with the oppressed .I also don't expect the oppressed to want to accept blame in any other way except talk, and talk is cheap!!
You know , it's real easy for whites to forgive and forget!!!!!I wonder why?
I do understand your logic, soundboyz, I just say that you are wrong in your assessment. It seems logical to you that you have been discriminated against, I can't argue that point. What I can argue is that whatever you choose to do with that is completely up to you and no one else.
At this point in time, soundboyz, monetary reparations will serve no purpose except to punish people that had nothing to do with slavery and move the black population back into slavery. Because if you think that for one minute, there are not going to be strings attached obviously you have never had any dealings with the Fed.
Soundboyz--It would be one thing for me to send Demming a bill for the costs of my being in therapy due to her molesting me as a child.
It would be quite another thing for my grandchildren to send her grandchildren a bill for their therapy because her abuse affected my life and thus my children's lives, and thus theirs.
Recognizing and accepting a causal chain of events is one thing. Demanding accountability from people who did not set that chain of events into motion is quite another.
Hey, and get me a beer while you're up!
Soundboyz--It would be one thing for me to send Demming a bill for the costs of my being in therapy due to her molesting me as a child.
It would be quite another thing for my grandchildren to send her grandchildren a bill for their therapy because her abuse affected my life and thus my children's lives, and thus theirs.
Recognizing and accepting a causal chain of events is one thing. Demanding accountability from people who did not set that chain of events into motion is quite another.
You know , it's real easy for whites to forgive and forget!!!!!I wonder why?
Kelly , I cannot believe that you are using these examples as comparison to slavery, segregation, bigotry and racism!!
You clearly don't understand how slavery, segergation, bigotry,and racism all are connected. They are not seperate issues, they are all paet of the same sickness!!
I don't expect you to understand, you're not a part of the affected group! Just like I could never understand your sufferings, I don't expect you to fully understand mine!!
And for the final time, reparations is not holding whites of today responsible, it's holding the government responsible. If you are a part of the country, including blacks, you're taxpayer dollars would be used to right a wrong!!
What if reparations went to Africa and all the countries that were raped of it's people, would that sound more logical, or do you have a problem with that too?
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